• MudMan@fedia.io
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    1 month ago

    I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves.

    In reality I’m much more worried about the likely counterreformist pushback that is likely about to happen. We’re about to find out if a remarkably powerful organization’s leader was able to seed enough support to secure a politically aligned successor, and if the answer is “no” a bunch of organizations are about to get even more ruthlessly conservative at a time when a new strain of fascism is seeking moral support. The Catholic Church has been here before. It didn’t go well.

    • philpo@feddit.org
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      1 month ago

      Yeah. It’s more than annoying, especially as it’s the same old Vance joke again and again and again. Which isn’t even clever.

      I am not a Christian by any means but I worked with them quite often. Francis did change a lot of things and while he wasn’t in no way perfect - he did have his drawbacks, for a fucking pope he was much better than anyone before him within the last few hundred years. People (especially on the internet)nowadays expect other people, especially political leaders to “check all their boxes” and if one thing is not going as far as they want, they are alienated.

      Often I have the impression that as long as someone is not going “all the way” in the right direction they are seen as bad as someone who does not do anything at all or goes in the wrong direction. (Which is ironic because the church itself has evolved past the “saint or sinner” directive)

      Francis has been going in the right direction probably 60% of the way and 10% in the wrong direction. Is the Catholic church there yet? No. Is there a big chance it might turn back? Yes. Would he been elected if he was so reformist it was sure he would topple everything and go 100%? Surely not.

      But he did much more than any of his predecessors did.

      Any much more most commenters do.

      Besides: It’s okay to feel sorry for an old man dying. That’s called fucking compassion. I work in healthcare and have seen a lot of people die. I feel sorry for almost all of them.

      In the end a human has died. Period.

      • peteyestee@feddit.org
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        1 month ago

        The joke about Vance killing him? I don’t think people mean it as a joke. That’s how the mob-like tactics work. It’s a very real consideration. Organized crime is intertwined deeply in American government and geopolitics.

        Shit even the Vatican was wrapped up in mafia stuff in the past and probably still is.

        Sorry but I used AI for this;

        "The Vatican has been associated with mafia connections, particularly during the papacies of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. These connections have been linked to financial scandals and criminal activities involving figures like Michele Sindona and Roberto Calvi. Sindona, a reputed international mafia chieftain, was appointed as the Vatican banker by Pope Paul VI, leading to significant financial disasters and frauds. Calvi, the head of Banco Ambrosiano, was also deeply involved in money laundering and had ties to the mafia and the Vatican Bank under the leadership of Archbishop Paul Marcinkus. Marcinkus faced criticism from Pope John Paul II’s inner circle but was protected by the Pope, highlighting the complex relationships within the Vatican during this period.

        In recent years, efforts have been made to address these issues. The Vatican created a working group in honor of Rosario Livatino, a Catholic judge killed by the mafia, to study the expulsion of criminal organizations from the Catholic Church. These initiatives reflect ongoing efforts to separate the Church from criminal influences and to promote integrity within its financial and organizational structures.

        The Vatican’s financial dealings have long been a source of scandal and embarrassment, contributing to a “black legend” that mars the Church’s image. Pope Francis has been particularly active in reforming Vatican finances, centralizing control over Vatican assets to reduce the risk of corruption and illegal activities.

        Despite these efforts, concerns about mafia influence persist, with investigations and arrests involving mafia members and their alleged cooperation with the Vatican Bank."

        And trump…

        "Donald Trump has been linked to organized crime figures throughout his career. He has been accused of doing business with and receiving favors from the Mafia during his early years as a developer in New York City. For instance, Trump used concrete supplied by companies controlled by the Mafia to build his properties, including Trump Tower, at a time when the concrete industry was under Mafia control.

        Trump’s lawyer, Roy Cohn, had ties to several Mafia bosses, and Cohn introduced Trump to some of these figures. Trump also had business dealings with individuals who had connections to organized crime, such as John Staluppi, a “made” member of the Colombo crime family, and Kenneth Shapiro, who worked for Philadelphia mobster Nicodemo “Little Nicky” Scarfo.

        In 2013, Trump admitted on David Letterman’s show that he had encountered “characters” associated with organized crime during his time in New York, but claimed he tried to stay away from them.

        These allegations have been detailed in various books and articles, including Wayne Barrett’s biography “Trump: The Deals and the Downfall” and a book titled “‘MAFIA’ Don: Donald Trump’s 40 years of Mob ties” by H.B. Glushakow."

        Organized crime is a key player in national and geopolitics. It never went away, they got better at it. And corrupted officials got better at hiding them. America is probably currently dominated by organized crime right now.

        There are four main rulers of humanity, nations/politicians, organized religions, 1% wealth business, and organized crime. They all mingle and all manipulate the poor and vulnerable to gather followers, soldiers, and sycophants in order to maintain control. It’s very real war happening.

  • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    He wasn’t “progressive” in any real form. It was just a good brand when he became Pope.

    I wouldn’t expect the “progressive” part to change rapidly up or down in the Latin church.

    Just one mafia boss being replaced with a successor. Not big news.

    • But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      The most PR pope, never meant anything he said, all gaslighting and hollow platitudes, no actual change, still shuffled around and defended pedos

      • merdaverse@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Ah yes, the expected purity test. Let’s just ignore any progress made and make snark remarks online while we wait for the 100% ideologically pure.

  • NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
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    1 month ago

    Friendly reminder: Progressive for a pope is still a transphobe who actively facilitated the rape of children. Not to mention all the horrific colonizer shit.

    Rest in piss Frankie boy.

    • LaunchesKayaks@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      I hate that you’re right. Like, seeing how kind and compassionate the man was outwardly in the day to day and knowing of the horrors he and the church participated in and tried to hide… It makes me all the more sour to organized religion.

    • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      100%

      After the way he let Robert Finn skate when he ran cover for a priest raping kids, Francis belongs in Hell. It’s a bummer that Hell isn’t a real place.

    • ssfckdt@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 month ago

      It’s like, he was pretty woke for a Pope, but, he was still a Pope.

      I don’t think things would have worked out well had he gone full prog anyway. There’d be schisms for sure. Hell, Trump would probably declare an American Catholic Church and have himself elected Pope of it. (Shit, I really shouldn’t have given him that idea)

      I don’t really know which way he personally felt. But even a Jesuit at the end of the day is a Catholic.

      • NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
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        1 month ago

        You’ll understand if I honestly don’t care if a fundamentally hateful and harmful org broke up.

        If “maybe we should stop supporting transphobia and rape and…” will kill an org… that org probably shouldn’t exist at all.

        • NιƙƙιDιɱҽʂ@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          I think what they’re saying is more along the lines of fracturing the existing org and replacing it with something worse.

          • NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
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            1 month ago

            Again, fuck that.

            “Sorry our trans friends. We would love to stop saying you are going to hell and are inhuman but doing so might mean we do even worse stuff in the future. Hey, don’t forget the alms basket, You… probably shouldn’t be in our churches but you can go to this website and give us money anyway”

    • Hawk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 month ago

      Honestly, it’s not even hat far fetched. He probably denied visits because he was in bad health, yet Americans probably pushed to meet anyway

  • realitista@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    I’m actually sad about this one. He was by far the best pope of my lifetime.

  • thatradomguy@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Do other religions go to such great lengths to cover this kind of news? Like would we see the same for the Dalai Lama?

    • MisanthropiCynic@lemm.eeBanned from community
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      1 month ago

      It should be a big deal when he does since he’ll be the last one because China kidnapped the successor

      • BreadstickNinja@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        China disappeared the Panchen Lama, the second-most important religious figure in Tibetan Buddhism, and replaced him with a China-selected puppet.

        But the Panchen Lama is not the successor to the Dalai Lama. The whole point is that the Dalai Lama will be reincarnated when he dies, so his successor isn’t born yet.

        The Dalai Lama recently proclaimed that his successor will be born in the free nations outside China - allowing him to be born, say, among the substantial Tibetan refugee populations in Nepal or India.

        However, it’s a near-certainty that China will select its own successor from a family loyal to the CCP, and from within China-controlled Tibet, while Tibetans outside the country will likely recognize another.

  • harmsy@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Guys. Joe Biden is Catholic. The Vatican has an opportunity to do the funniest thing ever.

  • But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Good. I’m an indigenous person who has plenty of relatives who suffered under church run schools. This pope was nothing but a PR figurehead, down vote me all you want but my native brown ass is finished worshiping your popes and colonial religion.

    I will take down votes with pride, it’s not new for me to get shit on for refusing to bow to this colonial, religious idiocy

    • Soggy@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      I’m surprised there’s not a bigger anti-Christian movement among the various colonized cultures, to be honest.